Transcript: Norway & the Arctic

Aleksander Nordahl  0:07  

I’m roaming the coast up and down, and I can literally see the places I’ve gone to change from one year to another. And when I go through my archives, and look at the pictures I took 15 years ago, and I look at the new pictures with the geo tag. Okay, I was here, and I thought to myself, it can’t be right, because there are no blue forests left, but it is the place, and it’s going so fast. And we like to say this famous expression, the clock is five to 12, where we are at a tipping point, whatever. And for me, it’s three o’clock in the morning. A lot of stuff is too late, and I see it change every day, and that is one of the reasons that I need to do what I did. I quit the staff position, senior pay, company, car, all the benefits, because this is the most important story that I can tell.

My name is Alexander Nordal. I’ve been a journalist, a visual storyteller for over 30 years. I started off documenting around world in early 90s all the time. I’ve also been a diver, and the last 15 years I’ve mostly been doing free diving, and I’ve taken my job beneath the surface, and that’s what I’m focusing on. Now, Norway has the second longest coastline in the world. If you stretch out the fjords that’s quite impressive, being raised and living by and in and off the coast, you get attached to it. And I’ve always been a person that has really loved the ocean. I remember in when we lived on the West Coast, my mother came and looked for me at the at this place, we were just swimming, and the lifeguards, they were just getting so used to me being out in the in the ocean. But my mother, she was looking for us. And then she asked the lifeguard, have you seen my son? It was a small place of people, you know? Yeah. And he was just pointing out there at sea, and I was far out looking at some lions, main jellyfish, which I love, and I still do. And she got really scared. But for me, the ocean is is the place they want to be. Norway has the second longest, you know, coastline in the world. Norway is one of the richest countries in the world. All our wealth and social welfare comes from the ocean. But when I go up and down the coast, and when I go diving in a place that I know is bad, people are friendly. They’re coming over. Oh, what do you see there? Can you see if you get me some scallops, or can you see some big cod? And I come up again, and I say to them, don’t you know, it’s nothing left there. And people go blank. And I can quote Margaret Atwood, she has a really, really good quote, which is straight to the point and it’s very easy,

kill the ocean and you die.

Hannah Stitfall  3:35  

This is oceans, life underwater, a series exploring our oceans and the fascinating life within them. I’m Hannah sitful. I’m a zoologist, wildlife filmmaker and broadcaster, and I’m bringing you along as I learn everything I can about our watery planet. In this episode, we’re heading to Norway. Now, when you think of Norway, you’re likely imagining pristine landscapes and breathtaking fjords, right, much like the ones Alexander describes in the opening of this episode. In 2024 the Norwegian parliament approved a proposal to allow deep sea mining exploration in its waters. In this episode, we’ll hear from a range of guests shedding light on the importance of the Norwegian waters and the growing threats they now face

Speaker 1  4:27  

up here in Svalbard. When people see it how bad it is up here, that would be a reminder that it is we’re living in a crisis.

Haldis Tjeldflaat Helle  4:37  

We have leading scientists saying it’s embarrassing to be in a region, because we give such sound advice to our government, and they just disregard everything we’re saying.

Andreas B Heide  4:48  

Everyone’s seen this footage of orcas hunting seals, and when you’re dressed up like a free diver, you do look a bit like a seal.

Christian Aslund  4:56  

I am hopeful, I think that we can turn this around. It will. Go back to be more like it was before.

Hannah Stitfall  5:03  

This is oceans life underwater. My first guest this week is how this Helle, who is a Greenpeace campaigner in Norway, Hello, how does how are you? Hi. Nice to meet you. Thank you for being here with us today. Really appreciate it. Now. To start off with, could you give us a bit of an overview about what deep sea mining is and where the industry stands in Norway today?

Haldis Tjeldflaat Helle  5:34  

So deep sea mining is this quite the wild idea of going out into the ocean, far far away from land, with the big ships, sometimes rigs and then heavy machinery, and lowering it all down many 1000s of metres into the deep to extract minerals. And Norway is one of the quite few countries being very aggressively in pursuit of this new industry. It is not started yet anywhere in the world, but Norway wants to be a world leader here. So what the Norwegian government has done is to open an area in the middle of the Norwegian Sea that’s quite far in the northern part of the Atlantic Ocean, which we usually call the Arctic oceans. It’s very far north, and they’ve opened this enormous area for the industry to start first explore and then exploit the minerals that they may find

Hannah Stitfall  6:32  

there. And can you tell us a little bit more about the ecosystems that are under threat in the Norwegian waters?

Haldis Tjeldflaat Helle  6:40  

Yes, so in Norwegian waters, we have both seamounts, which are basically underwater mountain ranges, and these are home to a really rich variety of life. As you know, from mountains on land, it can be quite different. If you’re high on a peak or in a deep valley, maybe there’s a river, so we can find those kind of varieties on sea mounds as well. In Norway, we have coral forests and sponges covering large areas and also habitats for fish that live for a long time. And then we have the great whales, for example, the sperm whale that dies deep along these ridges and hunt for squid and fish. So these are whole rich mountain regions, basically underwater. And these are some of the areas under threat of deep sea mining. What we also have in Norway, which is quite unique on a global scale, is hydrothermal vents. And these are these systems that are created due to the volcanic activity on the seabed, where hot, hot water, like 300 400 degrees Celsius, are coming up from the seabed and then creating these kind of vent systems. And in there, we find super unique ecosystems where microbes are using the chemical energy to create biomass, and then they are eaten by small shrimps or tube worms. And these are basically oasis of life in the deep sea.

Hannah Stitfall  8:10  

And I think the problem is for for myself and our listeners and the general public, because it is the deep sea which we know so little about. It is very much the case of out of sight, out of mind, isn’t it? I mean, we can see the degradation when people cut down the rainforests like we can see it with our own eyes. It’s tangible, isn’t it? But the problem is, what what goes on underneath the waves, we can’t see it. So that’s why, I think the work that you’re doing, campaigning against it is so important, because it’s exactly the same, isn’t it? Yes.

Haldis Tjeldflaat Helle  8:46  

I mean, the deep sea is one of the richest biomes we have on the planet. It’s also a really important carbon starch. It’s the biggest natural carbon starch on the planet. So it does provide this really important ecosystem functions, also services for us as Norway depend on the ocean for so much of our economy, for example, fisheries, these are systems that we rely on. It’s also the issue, as you say, that it’s so far away, both in terms of the distance from land, but also in the deep, and it’s kind of hard to know and to monitor also the activity that goes on there when we’re just starting to discover it going in there with mining equipment first. It’s just seems like such a wild idea to me, because, well, how are we going to monitor the impact here? How will we know what we’re actually losing by sending the mining equipment first?

Hannah Stitfall  9:40  

So for you personally, I mean, obviously you are a campaigner. Now, is this topic something of conversation with, say, you and your friends where you are in Norway?

Haldis Tjeldflaat Helle  9:53  

Yes. So for me and for the average Norwegian person, I think deep sea mining has not been a really known industry. For a long time, until the Norwegian government really put their foot on the gas pedal and started pushing aggressively for this industry. Norway has been exploring this for quite some time, but it has been going on under the radar, in close meetings, and something that only a few selected ministries are looking into, and no politicians really talking a lot about and that is also the issue with the deep sea, since it’s such a new area of discovery for both the scientists, but then also for the public, which is why, when you then hear as a new region, that suddenly our government is like, yeah, by the way, we’re going into this completely new ecosystem with mining first, and we don’t really know anything about the different ecosystems that we are possibly destroying by going in here. It just makes the idea seem completely reckless and super irresponsible, and that is my impression from the other people that I’m talking to when I’m I’m not campaigning, but in my my life, to see the way the Norwegian government has been operating. It’s been quite shocking, actually, and the disregard they show for both the value of these ecosystems, but also for the scientists that are very vocal in their opposition to deep sea mining, it’s been devastating for me as a young Norwegian, to see

Hannah Stitfall  11:19  

and how does when did you start campaigning? And what is it that that you do?

Haldis Tjeldflaat Helle  11:25  

So I’ve been a campaigner, or I’ve been an activist in the Norwegian environmental movement since I was 16 and in high school, and I’ve been campaigning a lot against the Norwegian oil and gas extraction, which also is quite an aggressive industry in Norway, where the Norwegian government is also disregarding science, both in terms of the impacts on nature, but also, of course, on the climate. And that is what I was working on before I got into deep sea mining. I’ve been working on this campaign since August 2023 when the process was really ramping up. And what I do is, of course, to use what I know about Norwegian politics to communicate to the politicians and to the people why this matters and why we have to stop this industry before it starts. And that means talking to scientists learning more about the deep sea, but also going out into the area where the miners are planning to start, we went on an expedition during the summer of 2024 mapping dissertations in the area, which was an amazing experience, where we really got to see the values of these ecosystems and their wonderful life that lives there.

Hannah Stitfall  12:39  

And what reaction do you get from the Norwegian public when you’re telling them about the issues of deep sea mining? Are people for it? People against it?

Haldis Tjeldflaat Helle  12:50  

So their Norwegian plans to start deep sea mining has been really strongly opposed by the Norwegian environmental movement, the Norwegian fisheries, the Norwegian scientists. We have leading scientists saying it’s embarrassing to be in Norwegian because we give such sound advice to our government, and they just disregard everything we’re saying. And the same goes for the Norwegian public. When you hear more and more about this story of deep sea mining in Norway, it just becomes this endless circle of disregard and irresponsibility.

Hannah Stitfall  13:25  

And why do you think that the Norwegian government are so willing to take these risks?

Haldis Tjeldflaat Helle  13:29  

Well, to be honest, it’s been quite the mystery for me, especially on deep sea mining. I’m so used to talking about oil and gas, and as you probably know, the Norwegian government has invested a lot of money into this industry, and transitioning away from such a big industries is, of course, a challenge. But deep sea mining, it’s this new project in Norway. We say it’s a air Castle, meaning that it’s just something that exists in the minds of the industry and of a few people, but still, the Norwegian government are disregarding all our sound arguments, and they’re not only coming from the environmental movement. The opposition to the deep sea mining has been very strong also internationally, Norway is going into meetings with the EU and then the European parliament passes resolutions expressing concern over the activities of the Norwegian government. It’s really quite shocking to see how many good arguments the Norwegian government can just disregard because they have this idea that maybe deep sea mining could be a new industry for Norway where you could make a profit.

Hannah Stitfall  14:37  

I mean, it does seem completely crazy, doesn’t it? What is it they’re not telling us? You know?

Haldis Tjeldflaat Helle  14:45  

Yeah, I’ve been asking myself the same thing, why the Norwegian government is so hell bent on extraction. It seems to me sometimes that it’s just this generational thing where our politicians are so used to thinking about our planet. As something expendable, and especially about the ocean as a place where you can, you know, throw our trash, and you can extract the all the resources there, and you can start fish farming without any any thought about the impacts on the long term, about these ecosystems that we depend on, also as a food source.

Hannah Stitfall  15:19  

So what’s next for you in this in this campaign, in your activism work?

Haldis Tjeldflaat Helle  15:24  

So right now, the Norwegian government are finalising the first licencing round where they are planning to hand out exploitation licences to the companies to start their work on on deep sea mining. But we also have an election this year in Norway. So what we are aiming to is, of course, to to really put this on the agenda in order for the Norwegian public to know what they’re going to vote for, and whether that is to start Nipsey mining or to join the rest of the growing movement Globally against destroying this last pristine ecosystem on Earth.

Hannah Stitfall  16:04  

Since speaking to holders, we’ve had an update that could change the game on deep sea mining, but you’ll have to wait until the end of this episode to hear that this next conversation was actually recorded on board the Greenpeace ship the Arctic Sunrise last year. The boat was actually swaying side to side, and we were looking at the most stunning landscapes. I’m sat with Christine Ausland, a renowned Swedish photo journalist and filmmaker who has worked on a project documenting the effects of climate change in the Arctic. Hello, Christian. Hello and nice to meet you. Well, lovely to meet you. We are aboard the Arctic Sunrise,

as you can hear in the background.

So what initially

drew you to document the Arctic region, and why do you personally feel it’s such an important subject for your photography?

Christian Aslund  16:54  

I was living up in the north of Norway, so that’s above the polar circle. I started to go up to this region around in the end of the 90s. I’ve been working up here since, and I’ve personally seen the changes that’s been ongoing here. And the project that we initiated at in 2002 by then, climate change, or global warming, that it was called, was not the public wasn’t as as aware as they are now. And therefore we decided to go back this year to show that the changes are are ongoing in rapid speed.

Hannah Stitfall  17:40  

What was it like here in the 1990s

Christian Aslund  17:43  

it was a lot more, especially sea ice and the glaciers were a lot bigger than they were now. It is a huge, huge change up here, because I

Hannah Stitfall  17:55  

know it’s the time of year, but when we arrived, I mean, I’ve never been here before, I couldn’t believe how green it was, and all of the mountains that you see around it’s very green, not much snow or ice on the top, and it’s quite warm. And I think when people think of the Arctic, they just assume that it’s always snow and ice. That’s not the case through the seasons. Is it?

Christian Aslund  18:15  

No, because the Arctic has a desert up here in Svalbard, it has a desert climate, so even in the winter, it’s not that much snow as you would expect. But at the same time, I think August, when we were here, was the warmest time ever in Langevin and Svalbard.

Hannah Stitfall  18:38  

What is working in the Arctic like? Can you describe the most challenging aspects of photography in the extreme conditions of the Arctic? And how do you prepare for these challenges?

Christian Aslund  18:48  

Since we were working in in the warmest time of the year and also the warmest month ever, it’s not that extreme to work when we came back from the project, I was wearing shorts and T shirt. Really, it was 20 degrees warming, goodness, but, but now, in September, the winter, Autumn is coming, so it will start to snow here and be be a lot more challenging.

Hannah Stitfall  19:21  

So I guess in the past, when you used to come here, say, like in the 1990s shorts and T shirts wouldn’t have been packed in your bag. So I guess your packing has changed quite a bit. It has so your Arctic work often highlights the impact of climate change. Can you share a specific moment or image that you feel best captured the urgency of the issue.

Christian Aslund  19:44  

For me, our series that we have done with with Greenpeace, it’s the glacier comparison work that we’ve done together with the Norwegian and Poland Institute, where we show documentation of glaciers. From around 19 108 up to 1960s then we go back to the same location, and we try to document that. And if you compare those images, you really see the dramatic change. And also regarding the glaciers, they have been documented in the summer and we also gone back at the same time of the year. And glaciers don’t melt like that in the summer and grow in the winter. So they’re not going to go back a kilometre in in the winter, so they’re not melting just because of the season.

Hannah Stitfall  20:44  

I’ve seen some of those images. I’ve saw a pair of them where there’s a person stood on each one, on each side, the first one is all like white and icy, and then the next one, there’s there’s hardly anything. It’s mad, isn’t it? Yeah.

Christian Aslund  20:58  

And it’s been fantastic to go in the footsteps of of a person that has done it 100 years before, and trying, trying to find the exact and after a while, you get to learn if it’s the same photographer. We sort of like, we know where that person had been taking the images, like we will go for that peak and to try to take the exact same image again.

Hannah Stitfall  21:25  

So how did you first go about finding the exact positions that the photographs were taken all of those years ago?

Christian Aslund  21:34  

So we started the project by going to the archive in drums in Norway, and this was before the images were scanned and digitalized. So we started going there, and then we were just sitting and going through all the prints to try to find the glaciers around the west coast of of salv. And then after that, we went and we tried to locate on maps based on the peaks that we could identify, and then just draw a map where we thought it would be. And luckily, at this time of the year, it’s midnight sun, so we have 24 hours of flight. So even, even if you’re not exactly correct where where you’re heading, you still have some time to find that location. So

Hannah Stitfall  22:29  

So you just went out looking after you’ve done your little map?

Christian Aslund  22:34  

Yes. so it’s been, it’s been, I think every photo that we take, it could be a couple of hours of hiking up a mountain, wow, and then finding out that it’s not right peak that, oh, no shot from. So that would push us to go a little bit further. So one image could take up to half a day, and then you need to transport yourself to the next location. So it’s, it’s time consuming, but also you’re in a fantastic environment with a lot of wildlife around you. So it’s, yeah, it’s been super interesting, yeah, to do this again,

Hannah Stitfall  23:19  

and I bet, quite rewarding as well, because not You’re not only just going back to try and retrace the footsteps and take photographs, this is contributing to the wider story of climate change and science?

Christian Aslund  23:31  

Yes and I think when people see it like visually, how bad it is up Here, I think hopefully that’ll be a reminder that it is we’re living in a crisis. And I think within 10 to 20 years, if nothing drastically happens, that all these glaciers that we documented, they will crawl up longer and longer away from the ocean, and that will have huge impact for for the whole globe.

Hannah Stitfall  24:04  

So you’ve been a photojournalist since the 1990s in your opinion, how has the situation in the Arctic chain since you first began documenting the region? And have you noticed any shifts in the environment or wildlife through your own eyes?

Christian Aslund  24:20  

In my opinion, it has really changed, especially up here in the Arctic region, where you can visibly see that the sea ice is not going as much south as used to. So only in 22 years time that I’ve been working up here, it is a really huge difference. Sea ice and the glaciers are the glaciers are melting rapidly up here.

Hannah Stitfall  24:49  

As someone who has worked in and documented this region for decades, looking forward, what do you see as the future of the Arctic? Are you hopeful and how. You plan to continue documenting the region as it evolves.

Christian Aslund  25:03  

I am hopeful, I think, that we can turn this around, that it’s not too late and in a few decades, that it will go back to be more like it was before. The last time we did this project was 22 years ago. My plan is to go back in 22 years, or maybe 20 years, and do a third follow up to see the changes of the glaciers, and by then, I hope that it’s not going to be as extreme as it has been the last 22 years.

Hannah Stitfall  25:43  

Well, keep up the fantastic work. Thank you so much for talking to us today.

Christian Aslund  25:47  

Thank you so much.

Hannah Stitfall  25:58  

Just remembering how cold it was on that boat is making me desperate for a warm drink, so let’s take a quick break. And whilst you do that, I would love it if you can get your phone out of your pocket and head over to Tiktok or Instagram, whichever you’re on, and drop us a follow at Ocean’s pod. We’ll be sharing the photo project that Christine talked about earlier, as well as some highlights from our trip to Norway. You okay?

Someone who has witnessed firsthand the wonders of the Norwegian waters is sailor, adventurer and marine biologist Andreas Hyde, he spoke with me about how his deep connection with the ocean began and some of the extraordinary encounters he’s had with wildlife during his work. Hello, Andreas,

Andreas B Heide  26:52  

hello, Hannah. How are you? I’m great. Thanks yourself.

Hannah Stitfall  26:56  

Very good. Thank you for joining me today all the way from Norway. Where are you at the minute?

Andreas B Heide  27:01  

I’m in Stavanger in southern Norway, just opposite the Shetland Islands, if you like.

Hannah Stitfall  27:06  

Oh, wow. Okay, How cold is it there right now?

Andreas B Heide  27:10  

It’s not too bad. It’s about 10 degrees, but it’s getting colder, so I’m just waiting for it to start snowing so I can go sailing north.

Hannah Stitfall  27:19  

So listen, you do wear a lot of hats, as I said in your introduction. You know, you’re a sailor, marine biologist, free diver and ocean storyteller. So what inspired you to get into this work in the first place?

Andreas B Heide  27:32  

I think what inspired me, I was fortunate enough to have a family that took me out into nature when I was a kid, and we grew up just next to the ocean. So I spent all my time out in nature. That was one of the things. I started free diving when I was seven. I had my first little boat with four horsepowers, which is absolutely nothing, when I was 10 years old, like this small boat. So that’s the nature side of it. And I think the photography and storytelling. When I grew up, we had only one TV channel in Norway, which is NRK, the equivalent of BBC, and I saw all the David Attenborough shows. So he has been a huge inspirational figure. In addition, I saw some of Jacques cousteau’s work. And I would say that these two gentlemen are the ones that have inspired me the most in doing what I do today, which is essentially to go out to nature and facilitate for scientists and storytellers, with the ultimate goal to to contribute To nature conservation.

Hannah Stitfall  28:39  

Now you’ve free dived since you were 10 years old, so you have a good understanding and view of the ecosystems and the marine life that surrounds Norwegian waters. Can you tell us a bit about that? What do you see when you go down?

Andreas B Heide  28:55  

I think it’s maybe not so much what you see. It’s more what you feel. That’s the first impression, like getting in the water and you’re like, weightless, and you float around, and you’re forced to being calm, like you can’t do if you do rapid movements underwater, you kind of use too much energy. So you do, you do these calm movements, and then you immerse with the water. I think the feeling is the first thing I would describe. And then what you see a lot of the life when diving you have, the deeper you go, the less life you have, because of the sunlight, mainly because the sunlight will only reach a certain depth, and at that depth there is no plant life can’t be sustained anymore. So it’s really from zero metres down to 30, at least in Norway, where we have the most life. And then in the upper part, you have lots of seaweed, and the seaweed is like alive, playing with the waves, and you’re playing with it. And then the further down you go, it kind of opens up, becomes more like a desert in a way, or similar, if you’re. In the countryside, the higher up you climb a mountain, the less vegetation you get. And then the water, it’s the kind of the opposite. So the deeper down you get, the less vegetation. But then a different seascape opens up with rocks, and you can see lobsters and crabs and all kinds of fish and scallops and whatnot. So that’s the general view, and then sometimes, of course, we when we’re looking for it, we find seals and whales and sharks.

Hannah Stitfall  30:28  

What does it sound like when you’re down there?

Andreas B Heide  30:31  

Well, in Norway, it’s quite calm underwater, like in the tropics. Not that I’ve been a lot in warm water, but I’ve had the experience, had the chance to experience it a couple of times. But in the tropics, you will hear this crackling sounds, but it’s it’s calmer in Norway, I’d say so, not so much. Sounds. You can hear the waves breaking. But of course, when you’re with with the whales, with the orcas, then it’s a lot of whale sounds, which is hugely exciting.

Hannah Stitfall  30:56  

Tell us a bit about your first time when you were in the water with whales or orcas.

Andreas B Heide  31:03  

Oh, yeah, that’s the, you know, the first time is the most scary time. And the first, first time I had an opportunity to get in the water with orcas was outside the Faroe Islands. So we saw like a pot of orcas. And my friends will tell this story better than I do, but it’s I jumped into my wetsuits. And then I knew everyone’s seen this footage of orcas hunting seals, and when you’re dressed up like a free diver, you do look a bit like a seal. So just to be on the safe side, I put on so how this scallops bag is like a yellow bag? So put that on my weight belt, just to make sure that they would see that I wasn’t a seal. I jumped in the water. Once you’re in the water, you don’t see the visibility was like five to 10 metres. So you kind of like tuck your arms together, and you’re a bit scared. But you also want to see these whales, so try to make like whale sounds underwater to attract them.

Hannah Stitfall  31:54  

Hang on. Hang on. I’ve got to stop you there. How do you make a whale sound?

Andreas B Heide  31:57  

Please, please. You said

it. I tried to, okay, this is the sound, but now I know better. But it was like, tried to do that underwater, but it didn’t work. So that was the first time, and and this was like, we were all alone out there, and we don’t these orcas had never seen humans in the water before, I guess so. So yeah, but I’ll never forget that one time, but then later on, I’ve spent, you know, I’ve had hundreds of interactions with Orca, so we’re cool now.

Hannah Stitfall  32:31  

Is it because you’ve worked on your on yourself?

Andreas B Heide  32:33  

Yeah, maybe the sound helped now. Now it’s more like, have a better understanding of the behaviour, and you’re able to time it better. And there’s a lot of things to do.

Hannah Stitfall  32:44  

Over the years, you spent a lot of time in the Arctic. And how have you visually seen the that area change because of climate change?

Andreas B Heide  32:57  

Yes. So I grew up in southern Norway, which doesn’t it’s close to the Arctic, but not entirely there. But so what I can see here, like from growing up, is that there is more and more vegetation, so that the islands that used to be bare, you see that vegetation is coming, and you can see, if you know, that it’s getting warmer and also underwater, I see new species in the water that wasn’t that aren’t supposed to be there, that no start to turn up, and we see the macro is going further north. And then when we sail in the Arctic, we see, we see the cods. We’re able to catch large amounts of cod in the northern parts of Svalbard, which I don’t think was possible in the past. But the problem with I only wish climate change would happen a bit faster, because then people would be more aware of it. It’s it’s like so slow that you hardly notice it, and it’s only over time that you see a big difference. So for us, when we go to Svalbard, I spend a lot of time reading books from hunter gatherers to understand nature. And then when you read these books, you see that just 100 years ago, it was impossible to go where we’re going today with, with a sailboat. So it’s you can see the change. And then talking to people that’s live their life with, with the sea. Yeah, that’s how you see the change. Like you don’t see it from one year to another, but from one decade to another, you definitely see it

Hannah Stitfall  34:24  

despite the challenges facing the Arctic. Do you have hope for its recovery?

Andreas B Heide  34:31  

Yes, I think no heroes has ever been known to give up. And when you lose hope, you’re essentially giving up. So we have to exclude that as an option. And I think also giving up, it would also affect your behaviour. So I still think there, there is hope. It’s going to be a rough landing that we know with not only global warming, but the entire threat to the biosphere, but we have to minimise the impact the best we can. And. I definitely think that what we we do matter, and the first thing we need to start with is our individual responsibility.

Hannah Stitfall  35:07  

So for our listeners, what is the barber project? And when did this work begin?

Andreas B Heide  35:15  

I think the barber project, to me, is like a continuation of what I’ve been doing my entire life, which is to explore the marine environment. And it started, I’d say it initially started in 2009 and its current way and form when I bought a worn down shutter ball together with a friend. And then in 2010 we we sailed to Greenland. So I think that’s kind of the starting point. And then, initially, we wrote for Norwegian sail press, and then International Sailing press. And then with time, I had some viral videos interacting with orcas. It could be a clip that you’ve seen like I’m being towed behind the boat on this underwater wing, and there’s a pot of orcas coming up behind me. So it was a GoPro clip, and it was on Great Big Story, and BBC World News, and so that’s got out there. I’d say the project started in 2009 2010 and then it’s grown exponentially. So the sailing press, international media, and with the exposure, we’ve got an interest from storytellers from around the world, videographers, photographers, journalists, scientists. And what I see my skill set as is more like a caddy for scientists and photographers. And my skill set, what I want to be my principal skill sets, is to be good with the boat and take these specialists out in into the field and and then make sure they can do their job. So for instance, that when I work with an excellent photographer like Conor McDonald, I let him do take the photos, even though I have a camera myself. But then I do everything I can to to make sure he gets the best results possible. And then the last time he was in the boat we where he took a photo of valdemir the beluga whale, which ended up on the front page of New York Times Magazine.

Hannah Stitfall  37:09  

Now you mentioned photographing valdemir the beluga whale, for anyone that doesn’t know, what is the story of valdemir?

Andreas B Heide  37:16  

Yeah, valdemir is this beluga whale. So beluga whale is a whale from the Arctic, four to five metres and grown state, and it’s completely white because that’s a natural camouflage up in the ice, and it doesn’t have a dorsal fin, so it can easily swim in the ice. And then in 2019 there was a beluga whale that showed up in the northernmost part of Norway, and he was friendly towards humans, and he was wearing a harness, which is quite unusual for a whale to be wearing a harness. How did a beluga whale get a harness on it? Well, you need to ask him. It’s too late now, unfortunately, but it’s but that harness. They took the harness off, and there was a GoPro mount on the harness and on the clips, it said, made in St Petersburg. So we know that the Russians have used beluga whales for military purposes, but also as therapeutical whales and to support dive operations. So it’s a trained Russian whale that’s shown up in Northern Norway. Most likely is a military whale, which is why he was given the the name the spy whale. So you have this white beluga whale friendly towards humans that’s in Norwegian waters, and who gets his social interactions with with other humans, basically because he doesn’t have his own kind around. This whale started swimming southwards down along the Norwegian coast. And it’s a long Norwegian coastline, as this was in 2019 and it’s last year he swam all the way to Sweden. So it’s like he was doing a tour of Norway. So once in Sweden, he swam back to the home orders of Stavanger, where he spent a year, I had the good fortune of meeting valdemir multiple times on his journey along the Norwegian coast, the first time in 2019 and more or less every year from there on, and I got to spend a lot of time with him when he was in Stavanger. And we would free dive and dive a lot with valdemir, but we never published that footage because we didn’t want to encourage non professionals to get in the water with them. But no, there was a mutual frustration that we couldn’t communicate. But you could tell there was a very intelligent animal. I grew up with dogs, and this is something way more intelligent. He had such we both had such a great time interacting in the water, and he just loved it. And I think he was, it’s a social animal, and he was a lonely whale, and when people were in the water with him, he he had a blast.

Hannah Stitfall  39:50  

Did he have any whale friends? Or was it just human?

Andreas B Heide  39:54  

No, he was all alone. That’s the sad part of it. At least he was. A free whale, and he was allowed to swim and do what he wanted like no one controlled him, but we knew he lived a risky life close to humans, away from his natural habitat, and unfortunately, he he passed away in the end, but not without having spread a lot of joy, and I’m sure his legacy will will live on.

Hannah Stitfall  40:24  

We will share some of Andreas work over on our social media accounts. We’re at oceans pod. Now it can be easy to get stuck thinking that news about the environment can be a bit doom and gloom. But to finish this episode, we have an exciting update to bring you. So how does since the last time we spoke, there has been an update on the plans to allow deep sea mining in Norway. Hasn’t there?

Haldis Tjeldflaat Helle  40:51  

There has been a really, really good development here in Norway, thanks to the vigorous campaigning, both of people across Norway, but also from across the world really engaging in stopping the destructive plans to mine the Arctic, and we actually managed to stop the plans, at least until the next election in Norway. So this is a real example of how people power can work.

Hannah Stitfall  41:15  

I mean, it’s fantastic news, isn’t it, but it’s only a pause, isn’t it?

Haldis Tjeldflaat Helle  41:20  

So in Norway, we have a minority government, and that means that there are some parties in parliament that have formed a government, but they can’t just pass any politics that they want. They need to negotiate laws and the budget with the other parties in Parliament. In the case of this deep sea mining plans, the government went to the socialist Left Party, which is quite close to them on some issues. So then they went into negotiations over budget, and they will do the same on other kinds of laws, and the minority government has agreed to suspend the plans until the next election. But what happens after the election is a bit up in the air. We might have a change of government. There will be new negotiations, and this has really set the bar. So we will, of course, fight for this stop to be continued and to be permanent, and for Norway to stop their destructive deep sea mining policy, both internationally and in Norwegian waters.

Hannah Stitfall  42:18  

And what do you think made the government make this decision?

Haldis Tjeldflaat Helle  42:23  

What happened was we, of course, together with our allies, caused a lot of pressure on Norwegian government. I mean, more than 100,000 people from outside of Norway has emailed the Norwegian government just in a couple of months, and even British Members of Parliament has written a letter to the Norwegian government asking them to stop so the pressure from outside has been huge, but then also inside of Norway, the environmental movement, they joined together in demanding from the socialist Left Party, which is the negotiating partner of the government, to demand that they cannot pass a budget for 2025 without stopping deep sea mining. So the joint pressure, both from outside and inside of Norway, made it possible for the socialist left party to sort of bargain with the Norwegian government over a budget and make sure that we got a stop to these plans.

Hannah Stitfall  43:18  

And where were you when you heard the news? Do you remember hearing it and how did it make you feel?

Haldis Tjeldflaat Helle  43:25  

I mean, it was such an exciting day. We had been following the budget negotiations super closely, and then we heard a rumour that it might come it was on a Sunday. So I left my parents where I had been eating a Sunday dinner, and went downtown to meet with some other people that had been following this very closely. And then we waited just by the parliament. And then the news finally broke, and we just went outside to the parliament to meet the socialist Left Party and the negotiators, and we did a small celebration. We handed them a plush octopus, and yeah, had a really nice celebration that evening, and then we continued the celebration for the entire next week. So it was amazing.

Hannah Stitfall  44:07  

Do you go back to your parents and continue your Sunday dinner?

Haldis Tjeldflaat Helle  44:12  

No, we went there. We went out for some drinks, actually.

Hannah Stitfall  44:16  

So do you think that the news has opened more people’s eyes to deep sea mining.

Haldis Tjeldflaat Helle  44:23  

Yes, I mean, deep sea mining is such a new topic to so many people, and it’s about this amazing place where that most people don’t really know much about, and the fact that this has become such a contentious issue so fast in Norway has probably put this on the agenda for so many regions. And also like seeing how strongly this was opposed by such a broad coalition, probably gives people a hunch that this is a bad idea.

Hannah Stitfall  44:49  

And what gives you hope when decisions are made that you don’t agree with?

Haldis Tjeldflaat Helle  44:53  

I think what really has given me hope in fighting deep sea mining is that we manage to turn it around. Ground. And it really shows that building strong coalitions and Joining Forces, both in Norway, where we have collaborated across the environmental movement, but also together with fisheries, together with unions, that has been super fruitful and something we should really harness and continue, but then also internationally, seeing how people are engaging in stopping these really destructive plans, I think we can learn from and adopt to other issues as well. So I’ve really been moved by the solidarity that I’ve seen in this campaign so far, and I think that’s a really important part of this campaign, both in Norway, but then also internationally, where especially indigenous peoples are fighting on the forefront of this fight.

Hannah Stitfall  45:40  

So how does what’s next? What else do we need to be keeping an eye on when it comes to deep sea mining?

Haldis Tjeldflaat Helle  45:46  

So for us, we need to keep focus on Norway, especially here, because we have the upcoming election, and we need to really make it clear that and keep the pressure high, that deep sea mining is completely unacceptable and that we cannot go forward with these plans, but then also we need to keep our focus in the international waters where indigenous peoples are in the Pacific are especially fighting super hard to protect their cultural heritage and also unique biodiversity against mining interests. And this is the fight for our common human heritage ecosystems that, frankly, belongs to us all and that we should not allow mining companies from the global north to exploit for short term profits.

Hannah Stitfall  46:36  

Next week, we’re warming things up a bit with the trip to the coral reefs. We’ll be hearing about the wonders of the reefs and some of the people dedicating their lives to protecting them.

Charlie Young  46:46  

These reefs are so biodiverse, in fact, probably the most biodiverse in the world. It’s just a feast for the eyes. I swear you could just look at one patch of reefs for 10 minutes and still be seeing new things after 10 minutes of just staring at it.

Hannah Stitfall  47:10  

This episode was brought to you by Greenpeace and Crowd Network. It is hosted by me, wildlife filmmaker and broadcaster Hannah Stitfall. It is produced by Vicki Wright, Catalina Noguera, Robert Wallace, George Sampson, Kate Stevens, Steve Jones and Christina Irivnak. Sound design is by Crawford Blair. The music we use is from our partners, BMG, Production Music. The team at Greenpeace is James Hansen, Alex Yallop, Jeane Meyer, Marta of charik. Flora Hvesi, Becky Malone and Alice Lloyd Hunter, archive, courtesy of Greenpeace. Thanks for listening. See you next week.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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