Welcome to the oceans. Want to know how it feels to dive 65m under the waves in a single breath? Or why worms in coral reefs are so exciting? Wildlife filmmaker and broadcaster Hannah Stitfall is joined by free-diving icon Daan Verhoeven, and esteemed marine biologist and science communicator Helen Scales explains why she’s still optimistic about the oceans’ future.
We’ll also be on board the Arctic Sunrise setting sail from Panama to the Galapagos Islands, a journey we’ll be following over the course of the podcast.
Presented by wildlife filmmaker, zoologist and broadcaster Hannah Stitfall, Oceans: Life Under Water is podcast from Greenpeace UK all about the oceans and the mind-blowing life within them.
Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.
Below is a transcript from this episode. It has not been fully edited for grammar, punctuation or spelling.
Daan Verhoeven (Intro):
Let’s take a typical dive. Let’s not go too far, let’s go to the coast of Cornwall. We take a boat out into the middle of the ocean, the Atlantic, it’s a beautiful day, see is not too wavy, there’s a little bit of wave, you take this big yellow boy, in whichever dive line, you dropped a line to however deep you want to go, let’s say 50 metres.
So you’ve got a straight dive line. So you know exactly like I won’t wander too far from there, you click on onto the dive line with a lanyard. And then I just like to lay on the surface of the ocean, and kind of literally get on the seas wavelength. Because you know, like, you can feel the waves like they kind of walk through your body. And if you let that happen, you instantly fall into the rhythm of the sea,
Then you take a nice big breath, you turn around, you face that line and you face the depths of the sea, that blue, you take a moment. And then you just start swimming down gently, slowly. And the deeper you go, the smaller your lungs get. And at a certain point, your lungs are so small that you’re no longer buoyant. So then comes the best bits, you can just stop swimming. And you just start falling into that blue.
And you can just completely surrender like everything you have, you don’t have to do anything anymore except for equalise. So everything you are is just in that little bowl of air in your mouth that you use to equalise your ear and the rest of futures dissolves into the water. Like ice, you slowly merge with something as powerful as an ocean.
It’s flying, you’re surrounded by nothing but blue, green. These weird sounds of the ocean like you can’t really hear the surface anymore.
But the ocean is full of sound because sound travels further on the waters with things and sometimes you can hear dolphins in the in the distance and sometimes can hear boats miles away.
But the overwhelming sensation, especially at depths is one of your heartbeat. You can hear it go – b-boom – every three seconds or so.
And this just comes, all other thoughts are gone.
And then you come back up. And you have like after a successful life the rest of your days good. Because like you had one good dive yet that moment of being at one with the sea. That means that’s a good day.
Hannah Stitfall:
This is Oceans: Life Under Water, a new podcast all about the oceans and the mind-blowing life within them. I’m Hannah Stitfall. I’m a zoologist, wildlife filmmaker and broadcaster. And I’m on a mission to learn everything I can about the big blue.
Voiceover 1: The ocean is just mind blowingly huge. Did you know that more than 70%, seven tenths of the Earth’s surface is covered in seawater.
Voiceover 2: You could drop all of Mount Everest into the ocean and still you’d have an enormous amount of water above it.
Hannah Stitfall:
Over the next 12 episodes. I’ll be talking to marine biologists, freedivers, submarine pilots, explorers, ship captains, scientists and policymakers hearing the most incredible stories about our seas, and the people who are devoting their lives to protecting them.
Voiceover 3: You know almost half of our planet is a vast ocean beyond national borders and I believe that we have a collective responsibility to protect it.
Voiceover 4: The ocean is important to Maori because without it we cannot thrive.
Voiceover 5: Oranges, yellows, reds, just incredible layers of life. I mean, every square centimetre covered.
Voiceover 6: If you’ve ever been in the richness of like, the presence of a whale and her calf, you know inherently you want to preserve that.
Voiceover 7: Protecting the ocean is not rocket science. We know how to do it. We just have to do it.
Hannah Stitfall:
This is Oceans: Life Under Water, Episode One
It’s early 2024 and I’m sitting in a studio in Devon with Dan Verhoeven, that Dan’s a free diver and filmmaker. He’s the official cameraman of the vertical blue competition in the Bahamas. Which, if you’ve watched the deepest breath on Netflix, you’ll have heard of, it’s the world’s deepest blue hole at 203 metres, which is pretty incredible. Dan’s been freediving now for over 20 years. And he lives in Cornwall with his wife, who is also the UK’s free diving champion. So it gives me great pleasure to welcome on, Dan. Hello, Dan! How are you today?
Daan Verhoeven:
I’m good. Thank you. How are you?
Hannah Stitfall:
I’m very well. Now, look, I love the oceans. But freediving is something that it slightly terrifies me. To be honest with you. How would you persuade anybody that’s sceptical about it to maybe give it a try?
Daan Verhoeven:
Well, like obviously, I understand the fear, because like, you can go without food for weeks, unpleasant weeks, but you can, you can go for water for a couple of days. But without breathing, people, that makes people anxious, that makes people a little bit short of breath almost instantly. I think I did a similar thing to what most people had. Like in the beginning, I remember being petrified of water as a kid, like we had to take swimming classes. And I was, I was petrified it was so much water, it was so scary, it was so overwhelming.
And the way I got over that is my stepfather took me on his back with like little floaties, on my arms. And he pushed off the wall. And you could feel that rush of water. And whenever I wanted to, I could just let go of him and pop back up to the surface. But then I got that that first sensation of being able to fly, like underwater, it’s as close as you can get to flying for most people. And I loved that sensation. So that fear almost instantly turned into a passion. Water and being underwater was always about playing, it was always about being free. Like you become an aquatic, you’re no longer terrestrial, you’re no longer breathing. So it becomes about being with water. Like I’ve been doing it 20 years, I know people who’ve been doing it 40 years. And it brings immense wealth to their lives. And like it became part of my identity, it became who I am in a way, because, you know, I don’t just go into water. And I’ve little like I also I, I adjusted my diet, I stopped smoking. You know, I started going out more to freediving competitions, like it brought me out of what was essentially kind of a depressing life.
Hannah Stitfall:
And I guess, you know, when you’re, you’re going to such great depths, there has to be a big sense of calm around it, you have to be in control. And I guess, lower your anxiety levels. Because imagine if you’re diving down, and then you start panicking, so I guess it’s a kind of a sort of meditation with it as well?
Daan Verhoeven:
Yeah, I often say that freediving is kind of like the opposite of a normal, extreme sport. Like most extreme sports are about adrenaline and how high can you pump up your heart rate, and you have to make 6 million decisions in one second. Whereas with freediving, you want everything to slow down as much as you can. Because you want to make your oxygen last as long as you care. So your heart rate just by putting your heart, your face in the water, your heart rate drops by 20 or 25%. And as soon as you go deeper, the deeper you go, the lower your heartbeat gets. So instead of going to like 180, or something, like extreme sports like to something until your heart explodes. Now it goes down and down and down. And until like 20 beats a second 15 maybe. And you can actually notice that like, if your heart slows down, your thoughts tend to slow down and your whole pace slows down. Everything becomes languid, liquid, slow. Everything becomes fluid. And it’s a really nice state to be in. Especially if you can do it for a couple of minutes.
My wife can hold her breath for seven minutes.
Hannah Stitfall:
Seven minutes!?
Daan Verhoeven:
Yeah, I can do it 6:45 and she…
Hannah Stitfall:
I bet that drives you mad!
Daan Verhoeven:
I love it! I love seeing her perform well. And she’s a much better freediver than I am. But the sensation she gets, like you don’t need to do the hold your breath for seven minutes to have those interesting sensations. Like if you just lay down and hold your breath, it can be very pleasant for like a minute or two minutes. You know, you don’t have to swim 200-300 metres under the water to know what it’s like and to feel that sensation of like what is this is like flying you know, you don’t have to dive to 60-70 metres even like I’ve had really pleasant dives to 5 or 10 metres and just being there and just hanging around. Now it doesn’t need to be extreme. But yeah, in its competitive form. But that’s competition, isn’t it?
Hannah Stitfall:
And I guess the further you go down, I mean, the sounds you must be hearing different types of sound and feeling different sensations that the lower down you get. I mean, how far have you ever free dive down before?
Daan Verhoeven:
Um, I’m a very mediocre freediver. I’ve been down to 65.
Hannah Stitfall:
Mediocre? I think that’s pretty good!
Daan Verhoeven:
World record is 140. Or 136. Yeah.
Hannah Stitfall:
I could do probably about two.
Daan Verhoeven:
You’d be surprised, actually, you’d be very surprised most people say that. But what also would surprise you is the sensations down there. Like the sound. I think a lot of freedivers do it because it’s so nice and quiet. Like, not just externally, like internally, it gets quiet to like everything you do. Out here in the air world, so to speak. There’s too many sensations almost isn’t there. Like there’s a lot of bright lights, and there’s a lot of sound. And there’s a lot of smells, none of that is down there. The sounds are quite muffled, actually. Like the light is very… I always compare it to honey seems like light seems to slow down. It’s one of the things I love about being underwater, like light does slow slow things. And it’s like it makes beautiful patterns everywhere. But at 50 metres deep, there’s almost no light anymore. So everything is kind of muted, most colours have disappeared. That’s a sort of freedom. Freedom from yourself as well. Combined with the notion of like, you are a part of this. Like an intrinsic knowledge, like you are part ocean ocean is part of you, you have salt water in your, in your body, you are a part of this.
For me, that connection, like feeling connected to something is like the opposite to what I used to feel, you know. And then all of a sudden, you’re part of an ocean, and part of a community that loves the ocean.
Hannah Stitfall:
Now, one thing that has really interests me, and I know it will interest our listeners as well. So I guess when you’re freediving, you must see a whole host of marine species underwater. Tell us some of your best stories of what you’ve what you’ve seen what your best wildlife encounters.
Daan Verhoeven:
So one of the reasons I started freediving in Egypt was there were dolphins. And we were snorkelling with them and diving with, well free diving with them in a way. And I got the distinct impression that they were making fun of me. Because they kind of look at you like, really? That’s how you swim. Are you okay?
Hannah Stitfall:
Like, it’s just, they are highly intelligent, so they probably were thinking.
Daan Verhoeven:
Yeah, they kind of look at us and go like, are you okay? What is that on your feet? Why are you swimming like that? Are you? Poor you, have you been injured?
That was the beginning. And then in 2022, we went for the first time to go freedive just with nature just to see the beast. And that was in Mexico. And that was a humpback whale. And it was too in the beginning. And they were just kind of hanging out like 10 metres. You know, like, normally they they kind of cruise through there. And you see him as like a drive by kind of saying, but this one was these two were hanging out, just chilling 10 metres. And they are kind of testing us to see like, let’s see what these see what these people can do.
So, in the end, I took like, I never do selfies, but I took a selfie with a humpback and my wife at 25 metres.
Hannah Stitfall:
I think I think that’s allowed. Yeah, that’s okay.
Daan Verhoeven:
But here’s the thing. I always try with wildlife, it’s about them. It’s not about me. And you’re in their territory, it’s their home. So I’m very respectful of that. So you kind of you don’t want to disturb them. If they are okay with me taking pictures if they are okay with me filming. I can usually, you can tell, you know, like they don’t try to run away or anything. But every time she or he came up, I noticed that she was making sure that she wasn’t ploughing right through us because it’s like it’s the size of a bus. He could easily disregard us and just like bump us out of the way but no, she was looking and like where are the people and surfacing where the people were and making sure that she wouldn’t hit anybody and everything. So she was looking at us as much as we were looking at her and like being respectful of each other. So, to start with dolphins kind of making fun of how crap you are, and then 18 years later, being able to hang with a whale at 25 metres. Like it was one of those moments where I kind of after having experienced that and having that giant eye look at you and connect with you at 25 metres. I think it’s the highlight of my life. Like I hung with a whale at 25 metres.
Hannah Stitfall:
And I guess it was that is that change from just being a free diver to doing the camera work underwater. And that led you to being the main cameraman on the biggest free diving competition in the world.
Daan Verhoeven:
Yeah, so Vertical Blue is they call it the Wimbledon of freediving and it’s kind of true for it’s it’s held in this place in Dean’s Blue Hole in Long Island. And I’m not a religious person, but the first time I saw Dean’s Blue Hole, I had a bit of a religious moment because it looks like somebody put their finger down. And when like you shall free dive here because it’s 15 metres off the beach. Okay, so this is like the Bahamas, right? So the beach is white sand, of course this palm trees all around, it’s romantic as hell. Turquoise water. Perfect, perfect, perfect. And then all of a sudden, there’s his rock formation in 180 degree circle, protecting a hole in the beach that goes down 200 metres. It’s unbelievable! So everything about that place is perfect. So it’s only natural that the best competition in the world takes place there. And that’s where a lot of world records are being set.
Hannah Stitfall:
When I was watching the deepest breath on Netflix, I think they they use the analogy that 103 is like swimming down the Statue of Liberty twice.
Daan Verhoeven:
Yeah.
Hannah Stitfall:
So what’s what’s the latest world record? And how much is it now?
Daan Verhoeven:
136.
Hannah Stitfall:
So the world record is the equivalent to three statues of liberty?
Daan Verhoeven:
I think it’s it’s the Victoria Tower. Big Ben, the big big tower. That’s about 90. So 136 is one and a half Big Bens.
Hannah Stitfall:
Wow.
Daan Verhoeven:
Yeah.
Hannah Stitfall:
It’s a long way.
Daan Verhoeven:
That’s a very long way. Yeah, Alexei is a beast Alexei Molchanov is, at the moment, probably the best freediver in the world. And he is. Yeah, he’s a freak show. He’s a lovely man. But he’s like, his lungs are enormous. His thights are enormous. His butt is enormous. It’s like everything about that guy is enormous, enormous. His joy is enormous. Like I call him the golden retriever freediving because he goes after that, after that bottom plate as my golden retriever does after a tennis ball. So there’s so much enthusiasm there. It’s… he loves it. I think that’s the big thing like with him and with all the champions I’ve seen. And I think in the deepest breath, that kind of also, you can see that in Alessia. There’s a real hunger and a real joy for being in the ocean and for doing it. Like all the greats I’ve seen. Not only train hard, but they also play. Like they have that that quality that water has. Like water is… there’s a lot of things. But it’s also inherently playful. There’s a joyous, playful quality to water and the greats all have that ability to play with it.
Hannah Stitfall:
And for anybody listening that would want to try freediving, what would be your top tips and how could they get involved?
Daan Verhoeven:
Top tip is don’t try it by yourself. Like freediving is safe as long as you do it under qualified supervision. So get a course, a freediving course, anywhere in the world. Most people think they have to go to tropical waters to try it. But here in England, it’s lovely as well. So I would say if you’re in England, like find a local club and find a local instructor, find some buddies.
And then the second tip is, like don’t make the mistake that I made. Like I started freediving first for the sensations and that was good. But then it became an ego thing. Like I wanted to sit national records and that kind of stuff. And national records don’t mean anything. Like I’ve said I don’t know how many didn’t change anything in my life. But if you die for the sensations and just for relaxation of it. And then you will always, always have a good time whether you do a personal best or not, it doesn’t matter, you know.
Hannah Stitfall:
And over the 20 years that you’ve been doing this for I mean, have you a bit you know, you must have free dived all over the world. Have you seen a difference in say, the amount of wildlife you encounter now under the water than you did say 20 years ago? Have you seen a change in species abundance?
Daan Verhoeven:
Yes. Two things I’ve witnessed is increasingly, even in places as paradise, the Bahamas, much more plastic. Animals stuck in plastic trapped in plastic. You see that. Like Dahab is known for its coral. It’s, there’s some bleaching going on there. It’s it’s less abundant. You can see it suffering there. And fish stock. Like if you dive in the Mediterranean, there’s nothing there. You have to go to like 40-50 metres, and then maybe you see something but.
Hannah Stitfall:
Wow.
Daan Verhoeven:
Yeah. Yeah. Which is a real shame. Because like, as soon as you come into like a marine protected area, they’re there, you know. But like diving in Cypress, it’s like, endless blue water. And it’s really pretty,
Hannah Stitfall:
But there’s nothing there.
Daan Verhoeven:
Not really.
Hannah Stitfall:
And what would you say your hopes are for the future of our oceans?
Daan Verhoeven:
So I used to get more and more pessimistic about it, because I kept seeing things getting worse. But then I went to a place called Cabo Pulmo in Mexico and they did an interesting thing. There they were, it’s an it’s traditionally been a fishing village. And they were fishing so much, and also with dynamite and everything, like stupid fishing. And they realised that they were kind of destroying the habitat and destroying their livelihood. So the whole place kind of voted and made a decision to be conservative and to stop fishing for a while, and instead focus on tourist.
So they stopped overfishing and they started doing this eco tourism thing. Not letting in hordes and hordes of people. Responsible numbers. And their economy is blossoming because of it. But also the ecosystem is blossoming is completely regenerated in 20 years, there’s more sharks than ever, the schools of jacks are bigger than ever. And it seems to be very sustainable. And it’s really beautiful. And I think that is the way forward. I saw that in other places in Baja as well, where, instead of like depleting the ocean, they’re kind of showing its richness and abundance to people. And it’s kind of like with whales and whaling, like a live whale is worth more than a dead whale.
Hannah Stitfall:
Absolutely.
Daan Verhoeven:
And I mean, to us, that makes inherent sense, because, like, what’s better than to swim with a whale. But if you’ve never experienced it, and like a whale is something that you might see on National Geographic once while you’re zapping or you don’t care about whales, but like if you’ve ever been in the richness of like, the presence of a whale and her calf, you know, inherently you want to preserve that. So I think what gives me hope is eco tourism. And people seem to becoming more aware of like the plastic.
Hannah Stitfall:
Attitudes changing even in the last sort of 10 years since I’ve been doing this as a, as a job. There’s been a huge change around awareness and attitudes towards ocean conservation and conservation in general. People are people are interested now. You know.
Daan Verhoeven:
So yeah, I’m definitely hopeful, but I have a feeling it’s like we’re trending a little bit downward still. But I’m hopeful. And also in general, like the ocean is such a powerful creature like, it will regenerate.
Hannah Stitfall:
Well, thank you, Dan. It’s been lovely talking to you today. I’m gonna have to come and see you and your wife in Helston. You’re only down the road for me.
Daan Verhoeven:
Yeah, what’s your excuse?
Hannah Stitfall:
I have none now.
Daan Verhoeven:
We’re dropping you down to 100 metres, day 1.
Hannah Stitfall:
Please don’t!
Daan Verhoeven:
My pleasure and yeah, drop by anytime.
Hannah Stitfall:
Thank you.
Daan Verhoeven:
The season starts mid April so
Hannah Stitfall:
Okay, mid April so it’ll be it’ll be a little bit warm. Can we leave it till August when it’s like hot?
Daan Verhoeven:
Yes, yeah. Probably a better idea right? But the water is nice now too. 10 degrees. We’ll give you a nice thick suit, we’ll be fine.
Hannah Stitfall:
Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you.
Daan Verhoeven:
Thank you for having me.
Hannah Stitfall:
Now, we’ll be back in a second. But before that, go make yourself a cup of tea, a mocktail, whatever your beverage of choice and check us out on socials. Now we’re on TikTok, Instagram and X/Twitter. And we’ve got some really cool freediving footage from Dan at @oceanspod, spread the word.
Now that conversation with Dan blew my mind, and I want to know more about what he said there at the end about marine reserves. What is a marine reserve? Helen Scales is the person to ask. Helen is a marine biologist, author and broadcaster, her new book ‘What the wild sea can be’, which is all about the future of the oceans comes out later this year. And it gives me great pleasure to welcome Helen to the studio. How are you?
Helen Scales:
I’m so good. Thank you, it’s lovely to be here.
Hannah Stitfall:
No, thank you for coming in. It’s really, really appreciate it. So let’s get into it. I mean, we, we know our oceans are credibly important. But what is protected marine reserve?
Helen Scales:
So there are lots of different words for ways in which we protect the ocean, I mean, the general idea is to decide that there are parts of the seas that we leave alone, and that we remove as much as possible, any of the human impacts that might affect what’s living there. The big one, obviously, is fishing. But because there are different types of reserves, you know, some will allow some activities, some allow none at all. And, you know, the, the ones that certainly I feel most passionate about, and many scientists and conservationists agree, is what we need are the really highly protected strict marine reserves where basically nothing, nothing damaging is allowed to happen at all, no forms of fishing, no forms of extraction, no forms of development, whether that’s going in and looking for oil and gas, even surveying, you know, using underwater, sonar, that kind of thing.
So basically, just all of those damaging things that humans can do to ocean life are not permitted in those areas. And the reason those are so important, is because we know that is the best way to let the ocean heal itself.
Hannah Stitfall:
And currently, I mean, what percentage of our oceans have this higher level of strict protection that is, is clearly needed?
Helen Scales:
The last time I had a look, I think it’s something I think officially it’s something around 3% of this highly strictly protected, I think. I might be wrong, it might be less, but it’s not huge. And it is an important question to look at, because you hear lots of figures being thrown around about maybe we’ve got 10% protected more than that for particular countries, perhaps. But the question is, how is that protection being enforced? What kind of levels are we talking about? And the really highly protected stuff is always a small portion of that. But I think it’s just really important to not just look at the figure and say, Okay, we’ve reached you know a 2%, or three, or whatever it is, it’s so important to know, where that protection is happening and how well it’s happening.
You know, whether it’s really having the benefits that protected areas do promise us and it does happen, you know, it does. They do work if they’re put in place well, and they’re well enforced, in terms of helping biodiversity to recover the abundance of ocean life to recover. We know that happens.
But there are these questions really, we you know, I think it’s important to ask about how ocean protection is being done and where it’s being done.
Hannah Stitfall:
So, Helen, how did you get into doing what you do?
Helen Scales:
So, I have, I guess I have always, for a very long time, I’ve felt this connection to the ocean. You know, my family has always been very nature loving, very outdoorsy. So it was just normal for me to be doing those things in those kinds of places, exploring the beaches, I always loved being in the water as well. So I think for me, that’s a big part of this is physically putting myself in the ocean and always loving that. And then it just kind of grew from there. You know, I slowly realised that I could do something like study marine biology, that’s a thing. And so that was obviously what I was gonna go and do. And then new things came along. And this idea of being a science communicator and talking about the ocean, I was not expecting, at all. I really wasn’t expecting that I was not the kid at school, who was brilliant at English and was writing amazing stories and, you know, was noted for being… I didn’t… words for me, were just the thing that I needed to pass my exams and to write my report.
Hannah Stitfall:
I completely agree Helen!
Helen Scales:
Yeah, completely agree. And then I kind of just had this aha moment. And it was while I was studying for my PhD, you know, I was so into the science that I wanted to carry on and studying. And I was very lucky to get chance to do that. And it was part of the way through doing that, I was like, you know, what, stories are so important. And it’s such an important part of the ocean and the amazing things that I get to see an ocean and the troubles that I’ve seen as well. And I want to tell people about that, I want to pass that on to other people. And I kind of just started having a go at various different ways of talking about the ocean and writing about the ocean. And I discovered that I really love it. And I’m not bad at it too, not to blow my own trumpet, or you know, or whatever. But, you know, I was like, I’m not bad at this, I went, I remember going to a conference, a scientific conference, about coral reefs, you know, one of the most beautiful, astonishing, incredible ecosystems we have in the ocean, like, who could not be utterly amazed by a coral reef? And yet, some of the talks I went to, and I obviously won’t name names, cuz I can’t even remember who they were. But I was like, Oh, my God, I’m so bored. How are you making this so boring? You have such an incredible ecosystem! You know, maybe you’re studying worms on a coral reef, but I don’t even that is amazing. And worms are amazing. So I thought, You know what, I’m gonna do this better. I can do this better. So when I started doing my own talks, I was like, I’m going to tell stories. And I’m going to make this engaging. Just because it’s science doesn’t mean it has to be boring. The more I look, the more I want to find out. I never get to the point. Well, I hope I never get to the point where I’m like, oh, yeah, done that. We know, all we need to know, I don’t think it’s gonna….
Hannah Stitfall:
And of course, there’s still so much that we don’t know about the oceans. And I was reading that they’ve just recently discovered the largest coral reef, 310 miles in length, and up to 68 miles wide.
Helen Scales:
Incredible!
Hannah Stitfall:
That is huge!
Helen Scales:
It is huge.
Hannah Stitfall:
And that’s only recently been discovered?
Helen Scales:
This is the one off the coast of the United States?
Hannah Stitfall:
Yeah, yeah.
Helen Scales:
I mean, the wonderful thing about that is, is that it’s a deep reef. And, you know, we think of corals, obviously, we think of coral reefs in the shallows, and these incredible tropical places, which I’ve been very lucky to go to, but they go on and on, down and down, and they still exist, you know, miles down beneath the waves. So there’s so much more to corals and reef than we might immediately think.
But yes, I mean, we are still learning so much about the ocean, especially in these deeper places, because we now have technologies to look and to visit and to survey these areas that we didn’t have before.
But for me, it’s why again, I think I’m never going to we can’t possibly ever get bored with the ocean, because we’re going to always be finding out new incredible things. And not just the odd species here or there. But like you say, massive hole reefs full of wildlife incredibly important for the health of the ocean.
Hannah Stitfall:
And this is why they need to be protected, because we’re probably could be already losing species faster than they’re even being discovered.
Helen Scales:
Oh, absolutely. I think there’s no sadly, there’s no doubt about that. But we do need to find these sorts of especially fragile and vulnerable habitats like a reef, which can so easily just be gone if we trawled it. These are fragile structural habitats. And these deep sea corals, which live incredibly long lives grow incredibly slowly in the dark, cold depths of the ocean. You know, we just have to avoid that damage in the first place. And we know that from places that have been trawled, you see mounts, deep sea mounts, and places, which, you know, were trawled maybe 40-50 years ago. And luckily, then protection has been put in place, but the recovery is so slow. We really need to stop it from happening in the first place.
Hannah Stitfall:
And I mean, when eco anxiety about things like this, when I look at them, it’s real. It’s almost like, I want to turn away and I think, Oh, God, there’s, there’s no hope we’re destroying everything. I mean, you are working frontline in ocean conservation, in ocean communication. Is there ever a point that gets too much for you?
Helen Scales:
Well, I don’t think there’s got a point where it’s become too much entirely. And I’ve, you know, had to I don’t know, I mean, I keep doing it, right. But it is a question that I’ve wrestled with for a long time, actually, this idea of whether I’m optimistic or pessimistic about the future and how to how to carry on talking about things like conservation, and still loving the ocean and still feeling like an ocean person when you see and you hear about so many of the troubles that ocean life faces. And you know, and so, so for some time, I have kind of had this personal battle going on within myself of like, well, where do I focus? You know, I think that was a communicator as well. I think that’s one of the big questions is well, and what do I do? Do I carry on telling people about how incredible the oceans are and ocean life is and talk about the science and the discovery, and I love that side of things. But at the same time, I also feel the need to tell people about the problems. And I, and I’ve come to a point where I think I need to have both. Not all the time. And there needs to be a balance. But I do think we can’t turn away from the troubles. And it’s going to just be a case of sort of finding that personal balance within ourselves. And and in, you know, in what we do in the work we do. I mean, it’s why I wrote my book, really, this book that’s coming out later this year, was really kind of my answer to that question, which I get asked a lot, which is am I hopeful for the future of the ocean, because I didn’t have a very good answer for it. So I’m being an author, I did what feels natural. And I wrote a whole book about an 80,000 word.
Hannah Stitfall:
What’s the conclusion in the book? If you can say.
Helen Scales:
Yeah, so I mean, it’s really a kind of the kind of formal version of the answer or kind of, I want to if I want to sound a bit more smart about it, I’ll talk about the fact that many other great thinkers and philosophers have, have talked about the idea of pessimism of the intellect and optimism of the will.
So in other words, it is possible to, to understand and engage with the troubles of the world in whatever way you might be talking about. And obviously, we’re talking about the environmental problems in the ocean, you can understand that. And one thing I want to do with the book is, and I hope I don’t put people off, but I do talk about some of the big troubles. And I think we need to know, and I don’t think we should shy away from understanding the vulnerability of species like emperor penguins in Antarctica, for instance, or the fact that pelagic sharks are having a terrible time, because of things like long lining and industrial fishing.
But we need to understand why that’s happening. And then ultimately, what could be done to undo that.
So it’s that pessimism because we understand things are bad, we can’t ignore that. But it’s the optimism of the will, in the sense that we can really commit wanting that future to be better. And I don’t think that is kidding ourselves, I think there genuinely is reason now, to be hopeful that things can be better, we don’t have to give up on and say, well, it’s just going to be worse in the future, the ocean is going to be worse than it is now. Sure, there are going to be winners, and there are going to be losers in amongst species and humans as well, in terms of how we use the ocean. But we can push towards as much of a fair and just version of the ocean in the future. And that’s one of the strong messages I want to say in the book is, you know, there’s a lot of, you know, inequalities in terms of the damage that’s happening and who it’s affecting, and who’s benefiting from the ocean. And we can push for, you know, as greater portion of nature is helped and protected. And as many people can benefit from the ocean as possible. And and that, for me is a hopeful version of the future of the ocean, if we can push towards that unknown. And we can, we can do that we, know what to do. We just need to do it. Yeah. But I really, for me, I think I know, that’s kind of an overarching thing. But the fact that there is just this greater and growing all the time, more people are becoming ocean people. Like I do. Like anyone can be an ocean person and feel that connection to the sea and to sea life, no matter where you are in the world. And I think there are more and more people who are becoming that and feeling that link. And that for me, I think it’s a really hopeful change.
Hannah Stitfall:
And the 30×30 goal is to protect 30% of the oceans by 2030. You know, it’s in the name? Do you think that 30×30 is a realistic goal? Do you think that we can actually do it? If everybody sorts themselves out?
Helen Scales:
We can do it! Of course we can! We can do anything we’ve shown you know, we’ve we’ve got examples of big things that have been done to help nature and to help the ocean. You know, to really push against those things that people once said were impossible. You know, even things like disasters like, like COVID-19, showing us that we’re pushed into a tight spot humanity can do incredible things, and we can figure things out. So we can figure this out.
Protecting the ocean is not rocket science, we know how to do it. But we absolutely have to be thinking of the entire ocean. You know, I keep sort of slipping in and out in this conversation of using ocean and oceans, singular and plural. When I’m really concentrating. No for me it is, it’s one ocean. Like it is all connected. We give bits of it names.
Hannah Stitfall:
Yeah we separate it in yeah five but it is one it is one thing on it on its own.
Helen Scales:
Exactly! So that you know it is, it is the ocean. It is the only one we’ve got and and we need to be thinking about all of it. And people are and that’s again, it’s where I get a lot of hope is more people than ever are realising how important the ocean is for all of us, for the health of the planet. And we’re pushing for that more hopeful future.
Hannah Stitfall:
Well, listen, Helen, thank you so much for coming on today. It’s been fascinating talking to you. When’s the book out?
Helen Scales:
I think it’s June. I’m going to just have a little look at this copy here. Yes, 6th of June. I should know that!
Hannah Stitfall:
Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure, thank you.
Hannah Stitfall:
Next week, I’m meeting a submarine pilot, and we’re diving down to the oceans deep. Now, before you all go, I just wanted to share a final nugget with you. At the end of each episode, I’m going to bring you something a bit special. You’re going to meet someone who lives or works near, on, or in the oceans. A short feelgood story from the high seas to show us what real people are doing now to protect the oceans. So here it is.
Usnea Granger:
My name is Usnea Granger and I have been sailing with Greenpeace International for about 15 years. Where we are right now is actually pretty exciting. We are onboard the Arctic Sunrise en route to the Galapagos. It’s a pretty phenomenal place to visit. We have about 16 crew members on board and 10 people joining from the campaign side of things.
So Greenpeace is well known in a lot of different ways. But one of them is for ocean defence in our presence to be able to go places that no one else is. So if there’s illegal fishing happening somewhere in the middle of the big blue, we can go check it out at the source.
She’s an icebreaking vessel, which is really exciting. She can go to the Arctic and go to the Antarctic, I will say that she’s also a unique vessel that her, the bow is really rounded in order to be an icebreaking vessel. So she rolls. They say she rolls like a pig. Yeah, like a pig rolling in mud. You get sea legs very fast, or you’re just out and seasick for a really long time.
So we left about three days ago from Balboa, Panama, and are in transit now to the high sea mountains and then to the Galapagos Islands.
So one of the main goals of this expedition, this scientific expedition is to really document the natural wildlife under the water and how these areas are doing in areas that are already protected in marine reserves and areas that are not that are open to all types of fishing and bycatch. So to really make scientific evidence on how much these protections allow the natural world to flourish and regenerate and restore like.
I just feel like eternally grateful to be able to be a part of this team. Like where else can you be on a ship with people from around the world that are here? Because they’re passionate about what they’re doing and their love for the natural world and then being able to experience it in the wilderness together is just. Yeah, I feel lucky every day.
This episode was brought to you by Greenpeace and Crowd Network. It’s hosted by me, wildlife filmmaker and broadcaster Hannah Stitfall. It is produced by Anastasia Auffenberg, and our executive producer Steve Jones. The music we use is from our partners BMG Production Music. Archive courtesy of Greenpeace. The team at crowd network is Catalina Nogueira, Archie Built Cliff, George Sampson and Robert Wallace. The team at Greenpeace is James Hansen, Flora Hevesi, Alex Yallop, Janae Mayer and Alice Lloyd Hunter. Thanks for listening and see you next week. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
